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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>meeting 2020.03.26 · t-compiler/wg-meta · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/index.html">t-compiler/wg-meta</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html">meeting 2020.03.26</a></h3>

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<a name="191925441"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191925441" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191925441">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1095">@T-compiler/WG-meta</span> <span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="191925687"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191925687" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191925687">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>pretty sure that <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> would like to talk about <a href="https://hackmd.io/VhVSTwgiTcmEslbpC7qCOQ" title="https://hackmd.io/VhVSTwgiTcmEslbpC7qCOQ">draft process that we should post as an RFC</a></p>



<a name="191925788"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191925788" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191925788">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>and if we have time I'd like to talk about the ideas stated in <a class="stream-topic" data-stream-id="131828" href="/#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/active.20working.20groups">#t-compiler &gt; active working groups</a></p>



<a name="191925855"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191925855" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191925855">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>in particular I've opened <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/264" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/264">compiler-team#264</a></p>



<a name="191926591"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926591" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926591">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>gah</p>



<a name="191926597"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926597" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926597">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm here :)</p>



<a name="191926640"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926640" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926640">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>mostly I'd like to move that process forward</p>



<a name="191926663"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926663" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926663">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm actually feeling pretty good about the whole "find someone who likes the idea and post it during the announcements at a triage meeting" part of it</p>



<a name="191926774"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926774" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926774">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think we should probably specify that we are going to create a <code>#t-compiler/major-change-proposals</code> stream</p>



<a name="191926790"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926790" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926790">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>and then the process is:</p>



<a name="191926803"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926803" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926803">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>open an issue with a short description</li>
</ul>



<a name="191926815"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926815" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926815">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>create a topic in the stream</li>
</ul>



<a name="191926899"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926899" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> DPC <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926899">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:11)</a>:</h4>
<p><span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="191926916"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926916" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926916">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:11)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>to go forward, you need to have someone <em>second</em> the proposal, which should ideally be the reviewer (and you should have nobody blocking)</li>
</ul>



<a name="191926935"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191926935" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191926935">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:11)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>and that result needs to be "announced" in the triage meeting</li>
</ul>



<a name="191927237"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927237" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927237">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess that's what we already wrote</p>



<a name="191927268"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927268" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927268">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>makes sense <span aria-label="+1" class="emoji emoji-1f44d" role="img" title="+1">:+1:</span></p>



<a name="191927302"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927302" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927302">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think we should discuss "blocking objections" a bit</p>



<a name="191927322"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927322" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927322">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't want to wind up in the situation of "indefinite blocks" that we get elsewhere</p>



<a name="191927353"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927353" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927353">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>at the same time, I don't want us to just barrel forward</p>



<a name="191927509"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927509" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927509">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>there are two pathologies and it's hard to navigate between them</p>
<ul>
<li><em>too easy to block</em> -- people raise objections then are too busy to really engage and respond</li>
<li><em>too hard to block</em> -- people get to do stuff just because there are so many things and it's too much energy to stop them</li>
</ul>
<p>It all kind of comes down I guess to overall bandwidth and the fact that there are usually more proposals than there is energy to think</p>



<a name="191927515"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927515" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927515">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah</p>



<a name="191927591"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927591" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927591">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah, so I think the bandwidth and energy factor is really important</p>



<a name="191927617"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927617" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927617">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>if you don't have time or energy you may overlook some stuff and end with proposals that wouldn't have been accepted</p>



<a name="191927621"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927621" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927621">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>or something like that</p>



<a name="191927687"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927687" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927687">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>well that's the too hard to block, your summary was perfect :)</p>



<a name="191927925"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927925" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927925">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>if someone blocks, can we just deal with it at a design meeting?</p>



<a name="191927939"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927939" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927939">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think so</p>



<a name="191927951"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927951" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927951">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>This actually connects to the "consitution" question</p>



<a name="191927959"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191927959" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191927959">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>obviously that could still cause problems, if someone is being troublesome and that ends up filling up design meeting slots</p>



<a name="191928028"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928028" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928028">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>but at least we shouldn't end up with "indefinite blocking"; progress should be made <em>eventually</em></p>



<a name="191928075"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928075" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928075">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>i.e., I'd ultimately like us to have a clearer set of "deciders", <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> and I were talking about the idea of a kind of "technical steering committee" that is a few folks who are making the final decisions</p>



<a name="191928098"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928098" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928098">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>(at least in complex cases...)</p>



<a name="191928182"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928182" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928182">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I don't think that has to be part of this specific ida</p>



<a name="191928215"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928215" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928215">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think it suffices for now to say "when an objection is raised, you should discuss, and if it you want to create space for the discussion, file a design meeting"</p>



<a name="191928273"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928273" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928273">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>I maybe wouldn't even phrase as 'objection', maybe there's a better term</p>



<a name="191928288"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928288" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928288">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess we call them "concerns" elsewhere</p>



<a name="191928354"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928354" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928354">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:21)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191928075" title="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191928075">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>i.e., I'd ultimately like us to have a clearer set of "deciders", <span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116083">pnkfelix</span> and I were talking about the idea of a kind of "technical steering committee" that is a few folks who are making the final decisions</p>
</blockquote>
<p>is this really needed? isn't enough having you and <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> as compiler team leaders giving the final call?</p>



<a name="191928416"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928416" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928416">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>probably</p>



<a name="191928441"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928441" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928441">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>in the cases where that's needed I guess we will mostly have consensus :)</p>



<a name="191928482"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928482" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928482">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>technicaly, though we've rarely exercised this,</p>



<a name="191928504"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928504" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928504">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>the original team rfc did state that "in the case where consensus cannot be reached, the team lead decides"</p>



<a name="191928510"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928510" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928510">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>(something I saw recently when re-reading)</p>



<a name="191928513"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928513" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928513">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:23)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191928273" title="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191928273">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I maybe wouldn't even phrase as 'objection', maybe there's a better term</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yeah more positive words are better than object and concern :)</p>



<a name="191928540"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928540" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928540">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I have a question</p>



<a name="191928541"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928541" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928541">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:23)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>Major changes go through the following states:<br>
    * Proposal -- when first opened<br>
    * Candidate -- when you find a reviewer and a "second expert" who backs it<br>
    * Final Comment Period -- after it has been announced at a meeting <br>
    * Accepted -- one week after FCP begins, presuming no concerns are raised</li>
</ul>



<a name="191928571"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928571" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928571">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>this is something I just wrote -- it's a minor detail -- but I'm basically just wondering about</p>



<a name="191928582"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928582" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928582">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think that FCP should always "begin" at some synchronous point</p>



<a name="191928599"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928599" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928599">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>so that folks can skim meeting blog posts or whatever and see what's going on</p>



<a name="191928606"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928606" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928606">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>does that make sense?</p>



<a name="191928667"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928667" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928667">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm imagining then that part of the "pre-triage" procss for prioritization wg</p>



<a name="191928692"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928692" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928692">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>would be to skim a list of "major change candidates" or something?</p>



<a name="191928718"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928718" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928718">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>or maybe people add it to the list themselves when they "second it"</p>



<a name="191928745"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928745" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928745">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah I think it makes sense</p>



<a name="191928751"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928751" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928751">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think we want to enable a structure where the decision making power/responsibility is rotated through the membership</p>



<a name="191928796"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928796" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928796">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>(sorry I was responding to a message way way back up there...)</p>



<a name="191928816"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928816" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928816">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>You mean relating to the TSC? That is true, that was a  motivation too</p>



<a name="191928851"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928851" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928851">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I also think a slightly larger TSC would be better than just the two leads</p>



<a name="191928855"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928855" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928855">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>but for now it's ok</p>



<a name="191928859"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928859" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928859">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes the Technical Steering Committee</p>



<a name="191928915"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928915" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928915">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway it doesn't matter for the short term</p>



<a name="191928920"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928920" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928920">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>thinking a bit more...</p>



<a name="191928927"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928927" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928927">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>its more a question of how best to govern things in the long run</p>



<a name="191928938"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928938" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928938">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>if part of the role of the TSC is to <em>select</em> the things to do, as well</p>



<a name="191928959"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928959" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928959">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>nowadays I have to assume that we all need to be a little more serious about bus factors</p>



<a name="191928961"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191928961" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191928961">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>...you could imagine having a kind of election early on to elect TSC members, which might help to set our agenda for the year...</p>



<a name="191929017"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929017" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929017">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>but yeah I'd rather get this MCP thing through first :)</p>



<a name="191929060"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929060" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929060">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>okay, yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to forcibly continue an abandoned digression. <span aria-label="slight smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>



<a name="191929065"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929065" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929065">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>side note <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> that I <em>still</em> want to raise the question of surveying our ongoing projects, project groups, etc</p>



<a name="191929233"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929233" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929233">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:28)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116083">pnkfelix</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191928859" title="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191928859">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>yes the Technical Steering Committee</p>
</blockquote>
<p>well another way to see it is if you have the leads (as I know you're) always listening and trying to have people reach consensus, rather than having a vertical style, I guess something like that is not needed :)</p>



<a name="191929248"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929248" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929248">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>but you know better than I do, so ... :)</p>



<a name="191929346"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929346" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929346">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>btw</p>



<a name="191929361"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929361" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929361">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>we don't have anything in the process to <strong>reject</strong> a MCP</p>



<a name="191929376"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929376" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929376">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>how do we decide to "close" one of these things? :)</p>



<a name="191929388"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929388" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929388">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>seems important to discuss</p>



<a name="191929394"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929394" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929394">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I think something <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> left unsaid is that there is a distinction between <em>technical</em> steering and <em>social</em> steering.)</p>



<a name="191929423"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929423" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929423">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>(team leads may need to do both. Not everyone is good at both.)</p>



<a name="191929450"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929450" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929450">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes, although I do think the role of the TSC would also be to do a lot of listening</p>



<a name="191929539"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929539" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929539">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>this comes back a little bit to "how do we decide"</p>



<a name="191929543"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929543" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929543">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:30)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191929376" title="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191929376">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>how do we decide to "close" one of these things? :)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>that is, this does</p>



<a name="191929556"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929556" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929556">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>in paricular, it's easier to judge "consensus",</p>



<a name="191929585"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929585" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929585">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I can see that if we decide "no we are not doing this"</p>



<a name="191929594"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929594" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929594">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>that may never get a "consensus"</p>



<a name="191929617"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929617" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929617">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe they just time out</p>



<a name="191929626"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929626" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929626">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>right</p>



<a name="191929630"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929630" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929630">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>(and/or the leads can decide)</p>



<a name="191929736"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929736" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929736">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:32)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191929617" title="#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26/near/191929617">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>maybe they just time out</p>
</blockquote>
<p>how much time?</p>



<a name="191929761"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929761" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929761">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>"after 3 months of inactivity, an issue can be closed", something like that?</p>



<a name="191929762"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929762" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929762">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>ah</p>



<a name="191929766"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929766" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929766">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>hah</p>



<a name="191929799"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929799" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929799">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>aren't we the project that has the Postponed label</p>



<a name="191929814"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929814" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929814">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>that just leaves things to die</p>



<a name="191929821"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929821" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929821">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:33)</a>:</h4>
<p><em>sigh</em></p>



<a name="191929971"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929971" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929971">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think I would say something like</p>



<a name="191929986"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191929986" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191929986">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:34)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>the team leads can actively decide not to do it</li>
</ul>



<a name="191930025"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930025" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930025">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:34)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>the author can withdraw</li>
</ul>



<a name="191930070"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930070" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930070">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:34)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>or after N months of inactivity or with unresolved concerns, we can close as "doesn't look this is going to reach consensus"</li>
</ul>



<a name="191930093"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930093" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930093">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>not sure how imp't the first bullet is</p>



<a name="191930168"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930168" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930168">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe we don't need to specify a time, but I think it'd be kind of useful</p>



<a name="191930216"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930216" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930216">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>but basically I imagine what will happen in practice is that every once in a while we'll sweep the list and "gc" old ideas</p>



<a name="191930262"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930262" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930262">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>that never quite got off the ground</p>



<a name="191930354"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930354" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930354">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm thinking though about some of the trickier cases we've been confronted with</p>



<a name="191930368"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930368" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Santiago Pastorino <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930368">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>sorry but I need to leave for a bit, going to read in a while</p>



<a name="191930385"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930385" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930385">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g., the "end to end" query PRs that led to an inconclusive design meeting</p>



<a name="191930396"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930396" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930396">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess that it would be valid after some time to close that proposal</p>



<a name="191930446"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930446" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930446">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>i.e., mw and I had unresolved objections, we had the design meeting, it doesn't seem like we were going to reach a consensus on the existing approach</p>



<a name="191930800"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting%202020.03.26/near/191930800" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/185694-t-compiler/wg-meta/topic/meeting.202020.2E03.2E26.html#191930800">(Mar 26 2020 at 18:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>gah, I guess it's "lang pre-triage" time</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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